Is Wyatt’s “Whoso List to Hunt” unique enough to be considered an original poem? Does it plagiarize all or part of Petrarch’s Rime 190? Or does it attempt to translate Petrarch’s Rime 190 into English?
I believe that Wyatt's "Whoso List to Hunt" is unique enough to be considered an original poem. Though he borrowed heavily from Petrarch, Wyatt actually creates his own version of the sonnet and successfully introduces new elements into the poetry form. Though Wyatt borrowed heavily from Petrarch, some symbols were universal at the time, such as the conceits about women and their beauty, their angelic features, and their radiant form.
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Clifford
11/20/2014 10:36:42 pm
I agree with Joshua in a way, however, i think that what makes Wyatt's poems his own is because he changed the translation and some words in the poem that alters the meaning of the poems which adds in his own style and makes it into his own, and thats why his poems are considered his own. Even though he borrowed from Petrarch many things such as the conceit, this is out of his interest in Petrarch as it is stated in the essay by Dasenbrock
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Kim Steve
11/22/2014 01:14:33 am
I agree also. He associated his understanding and his own style when he wrote his poem, and that distinguishes his poem from Petrarch's.
Kim Steve
11/22/2014 01:10:10 am
I agree completely. Although the themes and the symbols used by Wyatt were identical to those of Petrarch's, Wyatt used his own poetic sense to reconstruct what he read.
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Alex Lee
11/22/2014 11:38:11 pm
I don't agree with your second argument. I do not think that we can say that Wyatt's reference to Ceasar is just a coincident because that reference is too unique and also because Wyatt used that reference exactly the same way as Petrarch did. Hence I think Wyatt did not heavily borrow from Petrarch, but, in fact, I think that he copied some of Petrarch's contents.
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Clifford
11/20/2014 09:48:40 pm
In Wyatt's "Whoso List to Hunt", there are many similarities with Petrarch's poem. However, i believe that it is still considered a original poem. Even though Wyatt borrowed many aspects from Petrarch's poems, he still added in many of his own styles that makes the poem an unique poem. As Dasenbrock said in his essay on Wyatt's poems, we have to look at Wyatt's poem has his own framework comparing to Petrarch's because he changed any words which gives a different understanding to the poems than the original by Petrarch.
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Kim Steve
11/22/2014 01:20:54 am
I agree. Wyatt's poem had some aspects that were different from what Petrarch wrote. Although Wyatt's poem lacks originality, his own unique style and understanding of the given theme was expressed well.
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Kim Steve
11/22/2014 01:03:31 am
Wyatt's "Whoso List to Hunt" uses many references from Petrarch's Rime 190. Although critics have accused Wyatt of plagiarizing Petrarch's work, Wyatt's poem seems to be unique enough to be considered as an original poem. Wyatt's own interpretation of Petrarch's Rime 190, and his use of his poetic aptitude allows him to call his poem an original piece of literature.
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Phillip Cho
11/22/2014 01:16:38 pm
I support Steve's claim. Although the content in both poems is quite similar, Wyatt uses drastically different poetic elements, such as different structure, rhyme schemes, and conceits. "Imitation is the greatest form of flattery", and I think that Wyatt wrote this as an imitation in his admiration of Petrarch.
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Ian Jang
11/22/2014 04:26:49 pm
I really like the fact that you mentioned the poetic aptitude of Wyatt. Also, Dasenbrock's purpose of his essay was to identify the basic mistakes that people have been making in regards to Wyatt's translation and imitation of Petrarch.
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Guillaume Xing
11/22/2014 09:21:33 pm
I agree with Steve’s point that Wyatt had incorporated his own poetic aptitude into the creation of his poems. Although many critics may have accused Wyatt of excessively copying the ideas and contents of Petrarch’s poem, Wyatt’s own modifications towards the details of Petrarch’s poem are enough to say that he is truly a creative and original poet.
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Yu Jin Yang
11/22/2014 03:18:57 pm
I believe that Wyatt's "Whoso List to Hunt" is unique enough to be considered an original poem. I think Wyatt created his own version of Petrarch's Rime 190. He used some elements that Petrarch used but he did not completely plagiarize Petrarch's poem. Wyatt also created his own ending instead of copying Petrarch's ending.
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Ian Jang
11/22/2014 04:16:42 pm
I agree with Yu Jin. Wyatt's translation changed the meaning of the context which gives him a unique style. Also, Wyatt's translations "created a tradition of writing love sonnets in English that later culminated in great sonnet sequences of other famous people (page 122)." As it brought different impact as Petrarch's poem did, Wyatt's poem should definitely be considered an original poem.
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Alex Lee
11/22/2014 07:34:25 pm
I agree with Yujin. It is hard to say that Wyatt plagiarized Petrarch because Wyatt created his own format of the poem and reorganized the poem. Although he specifically referred to Petrarch's descriptions and diction, Wyatt ultimately just rewrote the poem with his own interpretation and style.
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Ian Jang
11/22/2014 04:11:24 pm
I personally think that Wyatt's "Whose list to hunt" is unique enough to be considered his own poem. Wyatt translated the poem by changing some of the meanings and putting them into his own styles. In fact, it is mentioned that Dasenbrock "criticized those who simply borrowed or translated uncreatively." This tells that as long as the translations are creative and are interpreted in different individual styles, it should be considered to have its own style.
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Alex Lee
11/22/2014 07:28:54 pm
I think Wyatt neither created his own poem nor plagiarized Petrarch's Rime 190. Wyatt did use a lot of specific contents of Petrarch's Rime 190. For example, Wyatt specifically copied Petrarch's reference to "Ceasar's neck" and the description of women as deer. However, while employing these specific contents from Petrarch's Rime 190, Wyatt uses a totally different format and organization of the sonnet. Since Wyatt only copied the content of Petrarch's poem while creating his own format of the poem, I think Wyatt only attempted to recreate the poem with his own interpretation.
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Maxwell
11/22/2014 09:10:45 pm
But how could Wyatt not create this own poem and write a poem (which means that he must have another source)? If he did not make his own poem, then he must have gotten the poem elsewhere, which means that he has plagiarized Petrarch's poem. I think what you mean here is that Wyatt did not intentionally copy Petrarch's poem but to me, he still did, which would be called plagiarizing.
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Maxwell
11/22/2014 08:54:48 pm
I would say that the poem is in a way plagiarizing Petrarch’s poem since there are many similar images in the poem. In Wyatt's and Petrarch's poem, chasing after the girl seems to be like a deer hunt. Both poems also use the same phrase "touch me not" from Caesar's poems which would not usually occur if the poem is original. But this might also be a result of Wyatt translating a large amount of Petrarch's poems so to determine whether this is called plagiarism is debatable.
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Guillaume Xing
11/22/2014 09:22:14 pm
There are in fact many striking similarities between “Whoso List to Hunt” and “Rime 190”. Although Sir Thomas Wyatt did borrow many elements of Petrarch’s poem, such as characterization, setting, and conceits, he was able to incorporate his own understanding of the scene that was being described in Petrarch’s poem, and create a completely original work of literature. Some examples include how Wyatt had divided his poem into an octave and a sestet, rather than following Petrarch’s poetic structure of 4 stanzas.
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Yang Nick
11/22/2014 11:26:31 pm
I think Wyatt's "Whoso List to Hunt" plagiarize Petrarch's "Rime 190". There are a lot of similarities in both poems. For examples, both poems mention about the purpose of the hunt. Also, the idea of the poems are basically the same, despite the structures are not the same. Even though, they express the hunt into in two different ways, the central idea is the same.
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